Inside Ballroom

In this interview, Georgina Philp, also known as European Mother Leo Saint Laurent, speaks with three international members from the House of Saint Laurent: Nekia Zulu Saint Laurent (US), Tropikahl Ivy Saint Laurent (CH) and Litchi (GER), about the international ballroom community, popular culture, mainstream influence, and the important perspective of non-binary individuals within the ballroom scene. 

Thank you really much, Nekia, Ivy and Litchi, for being here. To begin, could you please introduce yourselves? Who are you, and how did you first encounter the Ballroom scene?

Nekia Saint Laurent: My name is, let me do the dramatic one, Nekia Miss Rahi Garcon Saint Laurent, on the Kiki side it’s Nekia Marciano Alhana Juicy Couture Versace and I joined a ballroom in the summer of 2019, yeah 2019, with the House of Ms. Rai doing runway and performance, and my 1st night out I won a $1,000 for runway. And after that I put a runway down and started vouguing and been hitting the road since. 

I wonder if you'll come back to runway. 

NSL: You know I want to, but it just feels like the timing was never right. However, recently, the time has started to become right for me to do runway again. I've been getting booked professionally for fashion shows, which has kind of led me back into the ballroom scene. People already knew me as a model, so they always wanted me to walk the runway. Now that I'm starting to get back into modeling, I'm becoming more comfortable and confident. I know I'll eventually get back into a space where I'll be doing runway for ballroom again. Everything is starting to come full circle.

Also, we love your performance and don’t want to miss out on that. Thank you. Litchi, what about you?

Litchi: So, I am Litchi. I am many things. I'm a dancer, artist, and I also curate and produce, so I wear a lot of hats, as many people do. How did ballroom find me, or did I find ballroom? I was dancing before already, doing hip-hop, locking, all that. Then I was breaking, which I enjoyed a lot, but I didn't really enjoy the environment. I came to voguing through dance classes, like many people. I got to know about it through motions and went to the Wednesday trainings. I just met people. I don't even know how I got to New Way, because Christopher was doing New Way, and that was about it in Berlin at that time. But I stuck with it because I made friends with people outside of just training, which wasn't the case with breaking or hip-hop. This was around 2017, 2018, but I think 2018 was when I got to know it more intensely.

Thank you, Litchi. Ivy, The Trailblazer. What about you?

Tropikahl Ivy Saint Laurent: Okay, so yeah. My name is Tropikahl Ivy St. Laurent, The Major. Like Neki, I'm sharing my journey. I've been the Trailblazer Founding Mother of the Kiki House B. Poderosa, and I've been trailblazing in Switzerland, originally hailing from Brazil. My aim has been to blend elements of Brazilian culture with the ballroom scene here, creating space for the girls. I started ballroom back in 2017, beginning with my research in Brazil and then exploring the scene on the U.S. West Coast. I’ve travelled extensively, always respectful and low-key, but making significant waves. And here we are, after all this time.

And we are! That is true. So could you describe what ballroom is for you personally, or what makes ballroom like special for you? As something that I think we all participate in very passionate intensely at times.

L: It's very fun. Despite all the drama, it is actually fun. It allows you to be creative in many different ways, not just with movement. You can tap into many different things, which is very particular about ballroom compared to other cultures. Sometimes it’s difficult to describe what makes me gravitate towards it, but there’s something very magnetic about it. I'm quite introverted, but my category, New Way, allows me to be more open. Many people in New Way are like me, so I feel like I can move in it as I want, though it took time to get there. Ballroom also affects my day-to-day life. It's very different from other cultures or spaces. It's a lot of teaching and learning, and most importantly, it's fun and joyful.

NSL: For me, ballroom is like my alchemist's desk. It's where I can channel whatever I'm experiencing in my personal life and transform it into something positive. Whether I'm dealing with a lot of anger and frustration, I can go to ballroom to release those emotions and come out feeling better. Or, if I'm getting booked for performances and dance-related gigs, I use ballroom to get back into the groove of voguing and to regain my confidence. Ballroom has always been a space that helps me grow as an individual, even outside of the ballroom scene. It's like a cheat code for managing life's challenges. It’s an amazing way to elevate oneself and improve in many aspects of life.

Not bad.

TISL: What is the question again, mother? Just so.

I like either like, what is ballroom for you personally? Or what do you think makes ballroom special?

TISL: Ballroom takes up a significant space in my life, and sometimes it can be overwhelming being a trailblazer. I'm not going to lie it's challenging to teach people and handle the constant questions and demands. "Can you educate? Can you explain it again? Can you make it more palatable?" It's a lot to manage, and it can leave very little room for my own growth. It took me a long time to get to where I am now.But despite the challenges, ballroom is something I can't run away from. It's like inheriting something precious—you feel a responsibility to take care of it. I love it because it's intertwined with the people I care about, my family, and my community. This is how I do things, it's a part of my identity. I fell in love with ballroom in 2017, and since then, I haven't been able to leave it. If I ever say I've left ballroom, it would either be because I've lost myself completely or because I'm no longer alive. There's no Ivy without ballroom. It's a huge, irreplaceable part of my life.

Thank you. I can agree. It's takes a lot of time. A lot of effort. But it's just something you can, or I, personally also can’t stay away from.

NSL: I feel like some people, like my sister and I, are truly called to ballroom. We always talk about how some come to ballroom, while others are naturally drawn to it. When you're really called to ballroom, it becomes an intrinsic part of you. Even when I want to take a break, something always happens that pulls me back in. It never fails—either I get booked for a gig, or I feel the urge to start walking in balls again. Ballroom is more than just a competition; it's a community first. You care deeply concerned about the people and the community, which makes it hard to step away. The only time you might take a real break is when you move on from this life, and even then, they'll likely be naming balls in your honor. That's the beauty of ballroom—it's a lifelong commitment that stays with you, no matter what.

TISL: Pouring into the community (dances)

NSL: (laughs) Pouring into a community like this, you might ask, what makes ballroom so special? I really want to answer that because ballroom holds a truly unique place in my heart. The most significant aspect that makes it special is its foundation as a community first. Especially now, as ballroom has expanded to cities like New York and even reached Germany, we're everywhere. This community is filled with incredibly talented, inspiring individuals. We're all connected through our shared love of competition and the rich history of ballroom culture. It's incredibly beautiful to realise how many people from diverse backgrounds are united through ballroom. Whether it's someone involved in politics near the White House, a celebrity stylist, or a director choreographing performances, we occupy various roles in everyday life. Despite our different paths, we come together to kiki, celebrate, and support each other. This connection is what makes ballroom so profoundly beautiful.

Definitely. Yeah, that's ballroom for you. (laughs)

NSL: Exactly, that’s ballroom.

As someone who organizes community spaces and events, both within and outside of ballroom, what is most important to you about this work?

L: For me, it's about demanding equal treatment from institutions when they book us. It's about constantly reminding them that these are individuals, not just a culture to showcase. The performance is always more for the community than the audience. I also think it's important to recognize the foundations that have been laid by those before us and document things that haven't been recorded from this culture. Additionally, it's crucial to know when to step back and prioritize what I can or cannot do, which is something community work doesn’t often teach you.

What are some of the joyful moments and difficulties you face as an organizer?

L: The most enjoyable things are the smaller events, like parties at Volksbühne at the hotel, where it's more about being together rather than showing off. The Kiki we did, which was also small, was more fun and less pressure. I’m a perfectionist, so I feel more responsibility with bigger events. I also enjoy training, seeing how we all progress and develop. Training with people and seeing improvements is something I really appreciate. The community aspect, where we can get together, is very valuable to me.

Looking into the future you can choose between two questions: How do you see ballroom in ten years? Or: do you want to share encouragement or piece of wisdom for somebody that's entering ballroom in ten years. Time vessel into the future.

NSL: Oh, no, that's a hard question.

I was also thinking how I would answer that one. In fact, we can't really tell where it's gonna be because I feel like I don't even know where humanity is going to be in ten years.

NSL: That is one thing I feel about ballroom—it could kind of go one or two different ways. You know, we might feel like we're in the middle of it, but I guess we're still rising up on the mainstream. Ballroom's involvement is becoming mainstream again, and if history repeats itself, it becomes mainstream, and then it's not the hottest thing anymore. So we go back underground, and we go back to what we do or whatever. And although part of me wants to say that could possibly happen, and part of me might like for ballroom to go underground, that might be kind of a bitch. But another part of me feels like we're at this place of social media and talent being at an all-time high, and opportunities being able to be grabbed by anybody at all. When it comes to the talent and things that we bring to the ballroom floor, I don't think ballroom will ever become the underground thing that it once was ever again. I really think it will continue to grow with the world. God knows we might be in the fucking metaverse of voguing and have a ball. It's so hard to say because ballroom has always been just this enigma that can shift and change things in society, in the mainstream world, as is the fashion world, and how people in the industry draw inspiration either from our people who are in ballroom or from watching stuff that we do in ballroom. So, you know, honey, it might only be up from here.

L: It's important to stay true to yourself and be honest with yourself. Ballroom is high energy and unpredictable, so it forces you to learn how to be true to yourself. It's a unique space, especially for queer, trans, and people of color in Europe. But it’s important to remember that it's still made up of people with their own issues. The culture is not a finished product; it’s constantly evolving. I think it's crucial to accept that things change and to renegotiate your relationship with ballroom over time. In 10 years, I think it will continue to evolve, and it's essential to stay true to what you want to do. Ballroom can be a lifelong thing or just a passing phase, but the nice thing is that it’s not just about dancing. You can do other things within the community if dancing is no longer possible for you. It’s a journey, and I think in Europe, people are starting to accept that things are not stuck in time.

TISL: I am, I don't know, I am a realist. I don't dream that humanity will evolve to have peace, to continue respecting us, to continue this and that. We might really become underground again because if things keep evolving like this, people will hate us. It's insane what's happening politically in the world, and we cannot ignore that. People may still feel like we are underground and draw inspiration from us. I have concerns about the future, ten years from now. If we don't educate our kids to do better, to be better, to vote better, and actually go out and vote, organize ourselves—it's important to know how we'll create this future. I believe in Whitney Houston's words, "I believe the children are our future."

(laughs) Work!

NSL: That's why it's important to recognize that we are community artists, not just in a competition space.

TISL: Yeah, absolutely.

NSL: …when you recognize this, it's like a living, breathing body of people who just so happen to commune at these competitions. We are a community of people first. We have needs, desires, all of these things that should be met, especially on the political front. Like you said, it's kind of getting crazy out there. It's pretty crazy out here, so I can only imagine what it's like everywhere else. I just know how it's looking in New York and the US. It's getting kinda scary.

TISL: Maybe. I mean, like we just had, like the European votes for Parliament here. And the far right is rising, baby. It's rising, you know. So our rights are up for grabs. Our bodies are up for grabs, our freedom. Our gigs are up for grabs, you know, and I'm not gonna lie—ballroom is gonna be where it hits most. Because who are who, you know. we are the girls. We're like double actions, people 

 NSL: …but comforting. And it's comforting to know that basically, this exact same thing that's happening with you all over there is what's happening over here because our vote, our rights are definitely like this election is gonna be very detrimental for the US. Very detrimental. Everything from healthcare to being able to be fired just because of your color, or because you're queer, or you're a woman, or anything like that—it's so many different things that are basically... yeah, it's based on your vote as a person.

I definitely thank you. And I agree, Ivy, on the education part. That's what I was just gonna say. I don't know how it's gonna be in 10 years, but I know we need to focus more on the community aspect of it because through social media, it has become much more about competition and consumption, just more consumption.

TISL: I mean, like, I love to see the girls vogue. I love to see the girls more than that, but beyond that, I love a bitch who is articulate, and know how to talk her thoughts and know how to defend her rights.

NSL: People can vote/vogue for a cause. You know? (laughs)

Then I would have two questions for you, Nekia, specifically.

NSL: Huh! 

I think one is catered more to the American ballroom scene. And I guess, also taking scene. Why would you say the structure is so essential for the youth there?

NSL: You said, why is structure so important for the youth? What was the other part of it?

Yeah, in ballroom, why is it such a central space in the US? How is it structured, especially for youth? I feel like, at least looking from the outside, that's what's special about New York right now—the Kiki scene and how it has a different vision behind it, or had a different vision behind it.

NSL: So, I was just watching Naomi's interview with them, Queen Crazy Sexy Cool, and it's crazy how many people discover ballroom or come upon it through... hmm! But I basically came up in the birthplace of the Kiki scene, where it was a youth space. The bar would grow and all the different things would happen there. It created structure, but it also gave us a space to learn about mental health, community, all these different things specifically for queer youth. Coming into the Kiki scene here, I was already in the Kiki scene down south, and down south is a little bit different than coming up here where things are more to the original. We do have kids like 13-14-year-old kids in my house, and it's kinda crazy to me, but some things that you might not do before coming to ballroom, you might learn that in ballroom, like you do have some kids who learn how to respect people who are older than them and learn how to talk to them because they have these people who they admire and they look up to. Yes, for their talent, but when they come underneath you, they am, they use so much. That's like, "Okay, I know I can't just talk to this to this lady any kind of way, even though this is my mother, this is still my leader, this is going to be my house mother, this is going to be my house father." So, I can't talk to them any kind of way, or if they stress their grades are important, depending on the kind of leader that you have, you know they actually listen to those different leaders you put in. You're coming into these different kids' lives as leaders where it takes a village, it has always taken a village, no matter where you were at in the world. It takes a village to raise a child, and we are just another village to help raise your kid, as well as provide a space for them to grow as a creative. I never had a space like that, and the fact that they're able to do that now at 13 and I imagine, like how great and talented they'll be at 17, 18. I literally said, "She will be a shaman," the lady who taught her about be like, "Row, job, all this, everyone, do 360, real quick," and she would do it, but she was doing that 13 to where now she's in her thirties, and she's made a whole career out of something that she just had a natural passion for, she wanted to do it, and she had a space to come and do it, you know, I feel like coming in and learning structure, you might have, you might have all these different places where there's school, your job, or everything like that, where you have structure, and you may buff the system, but because this is the space where you're choosing to be here, and you want to be here, and you're learning structure through this, like, hobby or this, like, extracurricular activity that you're, like, pouring into, you know, that kind of adds structure to your life, it helps you become a better person, all in all, this community, people, and, like, the competition, space helps everybody grow, it's a better individuals if you so choose to, you know, if you, if you, if you choose to want to grow and become a better version of yourself, you can become a better version of yourself here, yeah, thank you.

What are you looking forward?

NSL: I'm looking forward to seeing everyone from all over who's been backing me. I always think back to when I first started getting noticed, and folks in Germany were some of the first to vibe with my story. I'd see them reposting me and chatting away in German—I don't speak a lick of it, so it was like, "Whoa! They're tuning in!" As time went on, I started clocking different countries. I'm just hyped to meet the people who dig what I bring to ballroom. I can't wait to check out all the sights and soak it all in. I'm really pumped to hit up Europe. I am.

TISL: I just had to raise my hand, not because I had something to say, but because you were talking about all these people who love you and want to see you here, and I was like, "Me me me me me me me.”

(laughter)

Ivy, I also have two questions for you. 

TISL: Well.

Being a trailblazer in Zürich, Switzerland, what would you say are some of the challenges, hardships, and rewards you've encountered while autonomously building a community?

TISL: Well, one of the hardships is that you need to be very, very resilient. Very, very resilient, because the challenge lies in getting others to recognise that ballroom is more than just something you do for a quick gig or treat as a passing dance culture. It's about re-educating people to see it as a body of work, a legacy of many. Yeah, making people understand, shaking hands with the devil, it's tough. You gotta do what you gotta do, babe. Coming here as a Black trans person, it was tough for people to believe I could achieve anything. And then, when I introduced ballroom, they were like, 'What's that?' Oh, my God!” Debunking all that and demanding respect was the hardest shit. I'm not even talking about the kids; the kids are my joy. Shifting from what was hard, it's really about the perception and judgment of white supremacy. Being who I am, doing what I do, white supremacy, that's the worst part about being a trailblazer in ballroom, as in anything else for a Black person in a white country. But yeah, you gotta confront that. You gotta shake hands with the devil. Sometimes you gotta punch a motherfucker, and that's the hardest confrontation, dealing with something you shouldn't have to. That's fucked up.

How do you feel about having to justify yourself?

TISL: So always having to justify, just justify. 

You know, know that the product is fab. You're gonna love it.

TISL: Yeah, I'm glad that now I'm in a space where people are starting to recognize how priceless the participation in ballroom is, especially for someone like me who brings ballroom to this region. You know, Mother knows that by the time this publication comes out, I've got my art prize here. So I'm telling Nekia, you know, she got her art prize, she's recognized, okay, she's an artist, bitch, she has built a repertoire. (laughs)

You know, and this is just the beginning because of my kids. My kids gave me everything. I gave everything for those motherfuckers. People came, people went, but the best have stayed, and they are the best thing. I love seeing how my kids have evolved in ballroom and as human beings. I'm in love with the process of mentoring, you know? Not teaching, mentoring, right? Because teaching assumes that you know it all, but I love it when I just don't know and I learn with my kids. We find a path that works for us and it's good for the community to show that we're growing together. It's just beautiful. I love relating to them.

NSL: I think one of the things that has made the whole journey difficult for me is the fact that I did it in front of the world. It's like catching that in ballroom where we started to become so mainstream that you could catch not necessarily the first part of my transition, but there are still some clips and everything like that where basically, I grew up in ballroom. A lot of people feel like I'm the baby because I came in at 17-18, and they've just constantly seen me grow and grow and grow. Now, in 2024, not only are we able to watch these kids grow, but the world is able to recognize their talent and see them grow too. So as much as people are always talking about ways to make laws and do things for the protection of the kids, they don't even realize that we as a community are thinking about our kids as well.

Ivy, you are at the forefront and also one of the representatives of Non-binary (NB) categories in European ballroom. Could you elaborate on that? Why are these categories important, and what are some of the challenges you have faced while implementing and participating in these categories?

TISL: I feel like the conversation about NB and GNC categories is so important because over time, we, the kids, are understanding that transition means a lot of things. It's not just about fitting into one mould. You know, there's this beautiful spectrum, and we celebrate that diversity. There's no disrespect to the generations of fem Queens that came before us; we honour their legacy. But at the same time, there are many other types of bodies in this almost infinite spectrum that people can choose to express their truth through. And sometimes, it doesn't fit into the binary norms

I feel empowered because I can serve however I want. I'm constantly evolving, and my community knows this about me. Whether I'm embracing my feminine side for a few days, exploring a more masculine energy, or something in between like a Butch Queen – it's all part of this spectrum. There are kids who resonate with this diversity, and it's crucial to protect and celebrate them. We can't just push them aside or deny their existence. I’m not advocating for every ball to be centered around non-binaries or GNC individuals, nor am I saying there should be a quota of categories. But we can't send these kids home feeling like ballroom isn't for them just because they don't fit into traditional boxes like X, Y, or Z. There are so many other letters in our alphabet, and we need to make space for all of them. Creating this inclusive space was important to me, and it has brought in a lot of kids who are navigating their own journeys of transition. They understand that this isn't about reaching a final destination but embracing a continuous evolution in life. My experiences have reaffirmed the importance of holding this space, and I'm passionate about it. That's why I wrote a manifesto that has resonated with people across the globe – from Europe to Brazil, Asia, and Australia. It's been challenging but sharing this manifesto has been crucial in opening discussions and preserving traditions while expanding opportunities for others.

Some may argue that non-binaries have always existed, and they're right. That's why it's important to name and recognize them formally. It's about giving respect and protection to these identities that have often been overlooked. My journey advocating for Gen Zs has been precious and challenging. I've encountered varying opinions – some supportive, others not so much – and I've felt the intensity of these conversations. 

But I haven't given up because, at the end of the day, my commitment lies with the kids I mentor and nurture. They're the reason I continue to fight for inclusivity and space within ballroom culture. I'm not here for the critics; I'm here for my community. So, let's keep it simple: let us be whoever we want to be, whether inside or outside of the ballroom scene. Period.

Thanks for sharing. I feel like this subject requires a lot of patience. It seems many people lack patience, especially those who oppose it. They demand an immediate explanation, a quick answer. "Give me the blueprint now!" But how can there be a blueprint if it's something new, you know? Period.

Anything else you want to share that we didn't touch on?

NSL: Can't wait to see you all at The Zulu C*nt Clinic workshop.

TISL: I'll be there for real, for real.

Author: Deniz Bolat